Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Nervous Herbalist, a podcast for Chinese medicine practitioners who like herbs and want to learn more about their function, their history and treatment strategies to use in the clinic.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Let's get into it.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: So Travis C. And I are taking a regular summer break that we do every year, but we wanted you to have something interesting to listen to while we're away.
So we're reaching into the recording archives to bring you some interviews we did when we were students at ocom, the Oregon College of Oriental Medicine.
As I'm sure many of you know, OCOM closed its doors in August of 2024 because of declining enrollments and complications from sort of post Covid economic recovery in downtown Portland.
And like so many alumni, watching OCOM shut was a heartbreaking event for me and Travis Cunningham. On a lot of level, of course, the loss of a top tier Chinese medicine school is a blow to our profession. And the leadership that steered that ship was enmeshed in basically every level of Chinese medicine governments across the country you could imagine.
But the deeper, I think, more personal loss, the thing that so many of us feel so acutely still is the loss of the OCOM community.
The faculty, the staff, the students, the alumni, everybody was the sort of ongoing manifestation of the college's legacy and its spirit, you know, as a place where smart and compassionate people could gather to be medicine nerds, to help patients, to experience, frankly, the deep and complicated worldview that Travis Cunningham and I are always talking about on this show. And the loss of that is still reverberating, I think, throughout the community.
The interesting thing about sitting down to go through some of our recording archives for this show, sort of these placeholders between transitions, was really a kind of bittersweet experience. It was sad, of course, that OCOM is gone, but amazing that we as students had the opportunity to build a show that we called River Map Radio and to speak with faculty and teachers and community members and even some students to get an idea of what, you know, Chinese medicine was like from all these various points of view.
So the interview we've got for you in this episode is one that we did with our Chinese faculty, liu go hui. Dr. Liu, who was an amazing inspiration, honestly, as an herbalist and as a clinician and, you know, as one of the many pearls of wisdom that he dropped in class. He told us about this sort of historico mythical story of the river map, as he called it, which is a pattern that appeared on the back of a turtle and was recorded in early classical thinking as a representation of the relationship between yin and yang. So that was our inspiration to talk to Dr. Liu. But of course, him being him, we just sort of went through a whole host of various, you know, topics and ideas.
And so we'll let our younger selves and Dr. Liu tell you a little bit about that.
Of course. As with the previous episode for this transitional spot in our seasons, this recording belongs to some of our earliest attempts at podcasting. So I will again apologize for some of the sound quality and the transitions. It was a decade ago.
We'll of course be back from our summer break in August and we'll have a whole new fourth season coming out for you guys then.
The content is going to be great. We've got a whole new host of disease topics to look at. We've got theory, we've got herbs, we've got broad spectrum topics. We're going to have some guest speakers. So we're really excited to hop into the fourth season of the Nervous Herbalist and we look forward to sharing that with y'.
[00:03:54] Speaker C: All.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: So keep a lookout for fresh episodes in season four coming in the third week of August, and until then, enjoy these trips into the past.
Thanks a bunch. We'll see y' all soon.
River Map Radio welcome to River Map Radio.
[00:04:24] Speaker C: River Map Radio is a student created and student executed production of OCOM student media.
This show was made possible through the support of the OCOM Student Association, OCOM faculty and staff, and with the participation of student volunteers.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Welcome to River Map Radio. I am your host, Travis Cunningham.
Today our producer, Travis Kern is with me.
[00:04:49] Speaker C: Hello everyone. Good to be back.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: So our interview today is with an extra special guest and faculty member at OCOM, Dr. Liu Go Hui. Dr. Liu graduated from Chengdu University of Traditional Chinese medicine more than 30 years ago. In his career, he has served as clinician, lecturer, professor, and esteemed colleague in Asia, Europe and the United States.
He has published numerous articles and scholarly papers on a variety of Chinese medicine topics and has even published several books, the most recent of which is a complete translation and commentary on the Chinese classic, the Shang Han Lun, published by Singing Dragon Press.
On a personal level, as a student of this medicine, it can be difficult in the beginning to take theoretical concepts and translate them into something that's tangible.
With Dr. Liu, you can feel the reality of the medicine. In his lectures and in his stories, he's able to take something that is at first completely obscure and turn it into something that we all know and have experienced in our own lives.
In the interview you are about to hear, Dr. Liu does just that with the concept of the river map, which inspired the name of our show.
[00:06:11] Speaker C: Yeah. So Dr. Liu was gracious enough to talk about the river map and a host of other topics, not just one time, but twice, in fact, because of some technical difficulties in our first recording. In fact, we spent more than an.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Hour with Dr. Liu in our first.
[00:06:28] Speaker C: Recording at his clinic, and we recorded mounds of wisdom and beautiful gems of insight, and then we're basically able to use none of it because of a screeching whine and a terrible drone in the background of our recording.
Yeah, it really was.
But Dr. Liu was unbelievably accommodating in finding a second time for us to record, and we sat down kind of with the intention to recover that material. And in fact, we ended up with an interview that was, I think, more impressive, more. More deep, with more profound insight than we had even in the first one.
So, you know, it's been. We were really lucky to be able to do that. And so we just want to say thanks one more time to Dr. Liu. And now let's go over to the interview.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: Let's do it.
So, first of all, we want to say it's an honor to be speaking with you, Dr. Liu.
Dr. Liu is very famous in the OCOM halls for his knowledge of Chinese herbalism.
And so. And in the first class of the class that Travis and I took with you, you told us the story of the river map, which has inspired the name of the podcast, actually. And for those people who don't know what the river map is or what it looks like, the icon that we have on the.
For the podcast is on the website, and it just looks like a bunch of dots that are kind of sequentially placed. So what is the river map? What does that mean?
How does it relate to Chinese medicine?
[00:08:12] Speaker D: River map, it is the first philosophical diagram recorded in Chinese history, is not only.
It has not only put the basis for Chinese medicine, but also Chinese culture as well.
And this map.
There are many stories about this map, how the people found it, but in general, people agree this map was founded by one of the king, called the Fuxi in ancient time.
And one day, this king sat on the bank of the Yellow river, and he watched one turtle swimming on the surface of the river, and he noticed there are some darts on the bank of this turtle.
And then he recorded the dots.
And this is the first river map. But later on, the people have started this river map. For example, the Fuxi have started this river map and have developed this trigram.
So in other words, this river map. First talk about the relationship between Yin and Yang.
Particularly according to the season change.
Each set of dots contains the Yin and Yang.
And this Yin and Yang is not absolutely equivalent to each other.
Each set of the dots they have the relative imbalance there. But it this imbalance makes this view map change according to the clockwise change the weather, for example in the north side is 1 to 6 and which indicates the condition of the winter.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: The winter?
[00:10:29] Speaker D: Yeah, winter have much more Yin but have the one Yang. If the computer is Yin, okay. There is no movement towards the spring. And it is this one Yang which is very strong.
It is hiding, lurking, but it's very strong.
Make the Yang Qi grow Yin. Even there is a six Yin.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Six Yin and one Yang.
[00:10:56] Speaker D: Yeah. So this is the kidney. We are born in this way. We have much more Yin than Yang.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: This is the water element.
[00:11:06] Speaker D: Water elements? Yes.
And these thoughts have set up the basic foundation for what called the Fire Spiritual School which pay much attention to the Yang Chi in theory and clinical practice.
And in Nijin Chapter 3 to the Yang Chi as well, they said the young Chinook the sun in the sky. And if we don't have the sun in the sky and this will be the pure Yin this universe in our life. Yeah. If we only have the Yin without the Yang, this is a dead body. When the people died, you know, your body become cold. There's no temperature at all.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Right.
So the river map has four sides to it. That's in the shape of a square.
[00:12:03] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:04] Speaker D: But is there a center?
[00:12:05] Speaker B: There's the center.
[00:12:06] Speaker D: Right.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: And I think that's actually how you introduced the concept to us in class is you asked the question why is earth in the center? And then you said the river map can tell us. And then you told us the story of the river map.
[00:12:18] Speaker D: Yes, the earth elements is so important because when we look at it, this number five, which is basically number of the earth without this earth, every other element cannot be matured.
For example, we just mentioned the water elements. If we only have the one which is Yang, and then this water cannot be matured, becomes 6.
So 6 minus 1 will be 5. So that's 5.
So for the wood, 2, 3 and 8, 3 plus 5, 8.
So each element must have the 5.
In other words, each element must have the earth to play important role make this element healthy, growing healthily.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: And that's the complete cycle of an element.
[00:13:18] Speaker D: Yeah, there's a complete.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: So from water it would be one to six and that would be the complete cycle.
So there are four sides to the square, and then there's earth, which is in the middle. And earth is important because each of the numbers on the side, the numbers of the yin and the Yang, those dots, the dots that represent that there's always five in between those two. So like water has one and six. Would you said has three and eight, Right. And so forth around the circle. So how is this, how is this used? How is it applied to Chinese medicine? How can we use that in Chinese medicine?
[00:13:58] Speaker D: Yeah. For example, you have noticed after you study Chinese medicine, many formula contains the Gansao, right?
[00:14:06] Speaker B: Gansao?
[00:14:07] Speaker D: Yeah, which is a sweet which can tolerate the spleen, stomach, which is earth ailments.
It said that Gantao can harmonize the formula.
So no matter what function of the formula would be, it modifies the caseling or regulate the niver qi or subdues and hard fire, or the nourish the yin for the lung. Without this sweet, they cannot perform.
We need this sweets when they are function back to normal.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:47] Speaker D: This is one another one.
When you started Chinese medical history in early 20th and in early 12th centuries, there is one school called the Earth elementary school, which pay attention to the splinter stump very much.
And they hold the spring stump accountable for many disorders. In clinically, it is very successful in the clinical, we still need that today. For example, when you treat the patient, no matter what disease would be, if the patient cannot take your herbs, cannot process, digest your herbs, how can herbs play the role in the process of the healing?
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Right. If the earth. Yeah. So in Chinese medicine, the earth element is the primary one we think of involved with digestion.
And so, yeah, if your digestion isn't good, then you can't process any of the herbs, you can't work on anything else.
So it's very central in that sense to the medicine, right?
Yeah.
[00:15:56] Speaker D: I think that this part also important to treat many difficult diseases. For example, cancer.
After chemotherapy, many people experience digestive problem like nausea, poor appetite, diarrhea.
So in order to help the patient recover or stand for the continuing chemotherapy, many people come to the chance medicine for help. But first you have to work on their digestion problem for improving their anemia. So in Chasten medicine, we said spleen and stomach is source of qi and blood production.
If you don't pay attention to this earth elements, how can you improve this or treat this anemia?
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, that makes sense.
Dr. Liu, what's. I'm always curious to hear the story of how they got interested in the medicine. When we interviewed you the first time you told us about getting into Chinese medicine and kind of with your father's approval. Do you want to tell people about that?
[00:17:17] Speaker D: Yeah, actually, I grew up in this family which has this lineage of the Chinese medicine.
My father has practiced Chinese medicine for more than 30 years. Actually, he was not first doing chess medicine, but he has studied chess medicine from his uncle for the just preserve the health by himself.
But after 1949 and he lost a job there was kind of the manager for the salt company.
And he had to pick up this skill. And he passed the entry examination in province which selected good doctor for further or for continued education in 1956.
And he went to the Chinese Medicine School, which is former school for the Chengdu University of Chinese Medicine.
Then he felt for the one year training and he studied very hard. And he got, I think the number two in class for the grade. And he was hired by the school.
But after one year working there as a teacher, he found his voice, his energy is not good enough to his faculty in the school. And he quit the job and go back to my hometown, the Zhigang City, which is south of the Chengdu University of Chinese Medicine, and practiced there until 1980.
So I grew up in this family. When I was young, I went to my doctor, my father's office first. You smell the moxa.
Of course, you saw this little.
You know, this is the observation.
I don't know what they are doing. When I was very young, you know, four, five years old.
But I first get the taste of the herbs is from my mother's job.
My mother worked in a dispensary to cook the herbs for the patient.
In the early 60s. At that time, many people suffer from malnutrition. Edema due to the malnutrition. Because Chinese people starving at that time.
And of course people needed the toilets. They have Qi deficiency, blood deficiency or young deficiency. So my mother cooks the food for the patient. Of course, we are starving too.
We don't have enough food to eat.
And my mom said, you look at the herbs and then choose what the good taste you pick up.
So for the after herbs, after cooking, I first get the chance to get to know the Chinese herbs in terms of their shape, the taste. Of course, I pick up the many good tastes like the Goji, Dangui, Shan Yao and the Huang Qi. Many torics.
[00:21:05] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:21:06] Speaker D: And the foods, of course, foods taste like the potatoes.
And so at first, I don't know what function well, but I just want to put in a mouth to satisfy them to my eat but later on, at age of 12, my father tried to taught me and in two way, one way he gave me some.
You know the book, okay. Remember some Chinese formula like the Liu Jun Zi tongue. So I get to know that the ingredients and their function too.
Another way my father taught me is Chinese poem which is training my imagination. I think this is very important to start the Chinese medicine.
Because Chinese medicine don't take anything from the body to exam. Rather they search the information on the surface, feel the pulse, look at the tongue, ask the question.
So you should put all this information in your mind. Imagine what happened in the body. Of course, first you should have image what the normal function of the body what the direction for the energy and flow in each organization. So you should have this imagination in your mind. But chaisem poem learning chaise Mon can training this way, right? Yeah. And during the Cultural Revolution school almost closely they don't have too much study in school.
And so my father said okay, here is 300 poems written in the Tang Dynasty which is quite popular famous copying in China. So I really appreciated my father giving me poetry. Yeah, poetry. And make me have that built my training my this imagination.
[00:23:10] Speaker C: Did you. Did you know that he was training you for Chinese medicine? Or that he was just giving you some poetry?
[00:23:16] Speaker D: No, I don't think he just gave me my chess culture. Of course, when you started the church mythology, you need the cultural microgram as well.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: Do you think he knew that he was training you for Chinese medicine or do you think.
[00:23:33] Speaker D: I have no idea at that time. But in 1977 we passed entry examination of university in China which was the first entry examination in 10 years.
Especially after Cultural Revolution there is a millions people want to get into university but the university is Ltd. Only 4%.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:24:00] Speaker D: People allowed. So the entry examinations are quite competitive. Of course I was very lucky. I passed an entry examination and then I was told you should choose the major. What major? You should want to start.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:17] Speaker D: Okay. So then my father come out said okay, you have to choose the one.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: You have to choose Chinese medicine because.
[00:24:26] Speaker D: Your brother started the city planning. And if you don't choose the Chinese medicine, this family energy will stop.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:24:36] Speaker D: So I think this university of traditional transfer.
And third, your third pick? Yes, third the choice.
First I want to study chemistry.
And so finally I was accepted by the Chichen University.
So I went there started four years and then I was hired by university for one year. Then I continued the graduate study for another three years.
And in Chengdu University at the end of my first Year study for bachelor degree I first published my article about Jing Gui Lui. I think this is a text he's.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: Talking about the Jing Gui La.
[00:25:28] Speaker D: Yeah.
So this probably is one of the reasons of course my grade I'm not the number one in my my class. We have 151 students in the class but I'm in the top 10.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:25:45] Speaker C: We would expect nothing less in the top 10.
[00:25:48] Speaker D: I don't want to number one, just go to the grade. I read a lot of other book including this philosophical this River Mac and book of the and Tao Te Ching. I want to build more ground of further study.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: So the last time we talked, you mentioned studying very personally under somebody after you graduated from university, correct?
[00:26:20] Speaker D: Yes, I started for the master degree with my mentor.
He is so famous to treat the spleen stomach disorders. Yes.
My major to study the Chinese medicine and mastered program is spleen stomach disorders Spleen stomach. So my mentor is Yuanpeng Zheng he is quite famous in my province and he will treat the 3040 patients in half days. You know, many people come from 100 miles away and get the treatment from him.
And of course he gave us a hard time of course very tough training.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: So what was that training like? What was it?
[00:27:11] Speaker D: Training is of course entry examination is very tough. First entry examination was you're supposed to learn by heart for the classics especially Shang Hanoi, Jing Gu, Yao Lui and Wen Bing which is a major book for the womb pathogen disease by the heart.
[00:27:35] Speaker C: By heart like the entire thing, entire sense.
[00:27:38] Speaker D: And the entry examination is very tough. Then you give you the sentence, take some words out, you are supposed to put it back in.
[00:27:47] Speaker C: And we have students complaining about our finals. Can you imagine having to memorize the whole thing? The whole book?
[00:27:53] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:27:55] Speaker D: Yeah. This is the part of the examination of course the many questions.
We don't have any multiple choice, fill.
[00:28:06] Speaker C: In the blank, know all of the above. That's right.
[00:28:10] Speaker D: Filling the bank and the question which very tough and you need to integrate this knowledge for the difficult book to answer this question I was very lucky I was the number one to pass this entry examination in my class at that time we only have. We have about 150 people attended this entry exam only accept 7 students.
So for my major I got the 93 score.
[00:28:45] Speaker C: Nice.
[00:28:46] Speaker D: Very nice, very nice.
[00:28:47] Speaker C: So this is in the late 70s.
[00:28:50] Speaker D: Dr. Liu or 82?
[00:28:51] Speaker C: 82.
[00:28:52] Speaker D: Okay, 82.
So during that three years study with my mentor, he assigned the book you have read every Thursday. I remember afternoon is our meeting time.
So you have A report and they were challenging you.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:29:11] Speaker D: And you will have half a day getting together just personally.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:29:16] Speaker D: And then we check what you have started. So question you.
Of course, the tough part is in the clinic.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: So tell, tell, tell our viewers in the clinic.
[00:29:27] Speaker D: Of course we write. Okay, we write the patient interview, you know, get information and feel the patient.
And he look at. And he will ask you what are line in Shang Hanwen? Who applied for this patient? What formula was applied?
I think, I believe we are not used.
We do the internship of my master degree. My teacher don't do this way. But this is quite tough.
Oh yeah, we just got the hot flash. You mute. Sure, sure.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:05] Speaker D: And sweat.
[00:30:08] Speaker C: So what would he do if you didn't know the answer?
[00:30:12] Speaker D: He will say, okay. He will write the formula. Okay. Go back to read.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Go back and read it.
[00:30:18] Speaker C: Go back and read it. Come back when you know the answer.
[00:30:21] Speaker D: Come back to say how to understand why I have to use this line and why I have to use this four meter.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:30:32] Speaker D: So it's quite tough.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: That is quite tough. And how long? Just so people get an idea, how long would the intakes be? So a patient would walk in five, 10 minutes. Five or 10 minutes. Which is vastly different from the way people practice today.
[00:30:48] Speaker D: Because you have 40 people waiting there, right? 5, 10 minutes. You will finish it. You finish your intrigue.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:30:57] Speaker D: Yeah, we're finishing. We complained. I said it's quite tough.
He said, this is not quite enough. And when we study with my mentor, we are supposed to sit there, have the one bowl with water on the top of the head, read a book.
[00:31:15] Speaker B: Oh my gosh.
[00:31:17] Speaker D: You are not supposed to make this water until they fall on the head.
If you do that, you will be punished at that time. Of course, he said that you have to open your hand. They will have the bamboo piece, slap the hand.
[00:31:38] Speaker C: So it's clear from stories like that that the classic texts have been a part of your life for a really long time.
And so that the listeners know, Dr. Liu has also offered authored a translation of the Shanghan Lun recently with commentary.
And that of course has been a project that you were working on for a really long time.
Why did you feel the need to do a translation?
[00:32:02] Speaker D: Because so far no book completely translate and make the commentary for the Shang Hanwen. None of them. And the second one, and they don't have introduce commentary made by scholar in the past, which quite useful for understanding the Shanghai Noi.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: Extremely.
[00:32:28] Speaker D: Yeah, extremely.
And they don't have any clinical information, especially how the ancient and modern practitioner uses Shanghan Lun Yose is a formula.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: So the Shanghan Lun was written 2000 years ago?
[00:32:49] Speaker D: Yeah, it's 1900 years ago.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: 1900 years ago.
[00:32:53] Speaker D: It was written roughly 219 A.D.
wow.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: So how is it that ancient people, people who lived back in that time, could write about, could write a book like the Shanghan lunatic and have it be as useful today as it was back then? Or how do you understand the people who wrote that text? How did they get that information? Do you think it was just thousands of people and the lineage before them that they acquired that knowledge? Or do you think that they had a different understanding of the world at that time?
Why do we trace everything back to that?
[00:33:39] Speaker D: You mean or.
[00:33:43] Speaker C: Well, for example, like, I think when people see, you know, so if you went to the store to buy a Shanghan Lun, it'll say Zhang Zhongjing as the author.
And contemporary people imagine, like Zhang Zhongjing, this very educated man sitting down to write this information. But of course, the book is from knowledge much older than Zhang Zhongjing. The book itself is a compilation maybe of many authors.
[00:34:06] Speaker D: So.
[00:34:07] Speaker C: So how is it for modern audiences to conceptualize that it wasn't just one man, one guy with his own knowledge? How did these ancient people acquire the knowledge that became the Shang Han Lun?
[00:34:19] Speaker D: I think that Zhang Zhongjing, when you read the preface he wrote, you notice the book he wrote is not only based on his knowledge or his practice.
He has based on the, at least in the preface, the four books.
And of course, unfortunately the two of them is lost. But Shennong Benjajing and Lei Jing is there, right? And also when we started the background of the formula in Shanghan and Jinguyaole, we have noticed now that many people and article as well agree Zhang Junjun have adapted formula which practice prior to the formula he used like Guizhu Tong Ma Huang Tang Bai Hutang is not his formula.
It is a practitioner before him used for a long time.
But he have this knowledge, he has this chance and based upon his study and practice, integrate them together, of course, to set up this frame for differentiation and treatment for Chinese medicine. This is why Shanghan is so important. It's not a theory book, pure theory book like the Legion.
And when you read the Shanghan, you should view mainly 9 is actually case study.
And they talk about, you know, how he treated the patient, follow the patient inflammation change and then give the correct formula accordingly.
[00:36:14] Speaker C: So when you imagine further back then before the Shang Hanlon all the way Back to Huang Di Nejing or Shenan Ben Cao Jing. Especially with the herbal like Shenan bin SEO Jing. Do you imagine that when people were figuring out how the herbs worked, for example, you know, we have this story of Shennong being able to eat the herb and see where it moved in his body.
That's probably a fictional tale.
[00:36:36] Speaker D: Yeah, I think so. That's a fictional tale.
[00:36:38] Speaker C: So were people just sitting around, you know, did they eat the futzi before and someone died and they went, oh, that's probably toxic. I mean, how did they figure that out, do you think?
[00:36:48] Speaker D: I have no idea. But there's one story in historical, in a historical book I remember beginning of the first century or end of the one century B.C.
there is one concubine, one mistress, daughter have married the king.
You know, king have many concubines and they have children. And they want their children become the next king.
[00:37:21] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:37:22] Speaker D: There's a fighting. Okay, so that's one minister's wife and no, his other concubine have the children, but her daughter don't have a child.
So he is jealous. He bribes the physician who served for the royal family and give the food to this woman who is pregnant. Of course, this woman died.
So this is the first record historically about the toxicity of food who can kill the person.
[00:38:05] Speaker C: But of course, for the physician to know and the minister to know, that knowledge would have to be much older than even that.
[00:38:10] Speaker D: Yeah, that's. Yeah.
[00:38:12] Speaker C: So interesting to imagine how we figured out the things that we know now and then.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: But then to take futsa as an example, right? The, the people who are in the fire spirit school that you mentioned earlier, they'll use a ton of futsa and their formula, sometimes 200 grams, things like this in some of their formulas. Formulas. So then like you wonder how did people find out that you could use that much of this herb that would otherwise kill somebody to restore life?
[00:38:42] Speaker D: This is of course it depend on. So what kind of the foods you use? You use prepared one non prepared wine. The cooking method is very important. You have learned how to do that.
And I think it's not a matter of this amount and it's a matter of prepare the preparation, preparation and the combination too.
Food is not used alone. For example, this person, this lady with a pregnancy diet is poisoned only by foods, of course.
So normally we use foods like sunitang, we have the ganjiang, we have the zhiganzhao there. So it must be combined with those herbs to compromise is the poisoning, Right. And. But personally I would not suggest you guys use them as 300 gram maybe. It's a very rare case that a patient need this much, but normally we don't need.
[00:39:41] Speaker C: That's quite a lot of food. That's a lot of food.
[00:39:44] Speaker D: You said that means you use 500.500gram of the food, you will become the king in this kingdom, maybe the king.
[00:39:55] Speaker C: In the next kingdom is what would end up happening. Yeah, exactly.
[00:39:59] Speaker B: Oh, boy.
[00:40:00] Speaker C: So, Dr. Liu, I have a question too. You mentioned, you know, these old Tang dynasty poems and then the I Ching, the Dao Te Ching, a lot of those kinds of works. When Western people read them, or Americans in particular read them, they're kind of read with this sort of mystical spiritual construct that people think of them.
When you think of Chinese medicine, do you think of it with that sort of spiritual, esoteric, mystical quality, or is it more clinical, biological, practical?
[00:40:33] Speaker D: What is a more clinical practical base? But we do the erosion when we treat a patient. We do think about the patient emotions, spiritual, we integrate and we have this concept of the shen spirit. You know, we have these seven emotions.
We do. But we don't think the Chinese medicine will mainly play in that role.
[00:41:05] Speaker C: So mostly biological, but still dealing in these. The mental, the emotional, the spiritual space.
Yeah. I always liked, whenever we interview people, I like to ask them about sort of where they fall in that. Because, you know, some of our professors and some other practitioners work in a much more energetic spiritual space, you know, where they don't even necessarily put their hands on a patient and still manage.
[00:41:31] Speaker D: There is some case I feel just the chase medicine and control cannot do.
So for this case, I need the patient to go to the. Either go to the consultant and go to the qigong master and go to Taiji. I found this patient.
Chinese medicine is not strong enough. That's the case.
[00:41:54] Speaker B: So what key thing do you think a good practitioner of Chinese medicine must have a quality or practice or something like that? What would you say is essential for someone to practice this medicine?
[00:42:09] Speaker D: Well, yeah, we, in China, we have the one pervert you should have. When you do everything, you should have the confidence in your mind.
Chinese medicine like an energy.
You should build an energy. For example, for this case, we said when you want to draw the painting for the bamboo, you should have the good imagination in your mind. We said that you should have a good imagination in your mind.
So when you want to understand the body very well, when you want to understand the patient case very well, you should have the imagination.
You should use an energy, this analogy to demonstrate how the body work how the herbs work.
You should use this analogy. Explain the patient to the patient, let the patient understand what you are doing. And then they can have better the idea to integrate to cooperate with your treatment. For example, when you want to give the diaphragm to the patient, you have to say, okay.
For example, some people do have the bowel obstruction, is that correct?
[00:43:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:35] Speaker D: And eventually they will have nausea or vomiting first. Poor appetite, of course, when you have the bowel obstruction.
So we said you should use analogy now. Ventilation. In order to open the window in the south, you should open the window in the north.
Okay. In order to get the energy descending from stump to make the subside your nose. Yeah. Vomit, improve your appetite. We have to purge your bowel, let this heart stool go out, or heat or pathology factor, whatever, go out via the bowel movement.
So we have to use this analogy to explain this is what happened in the body.
[00:44:19] Speaker B: And you have to be able to imagine it.
[00:44:21] Speaker D: Imagine it. And you have. Sometimes when you give the herbs, like the Guizhu Tong or Ma Huangtong, of course, the patient is supposed to have sweating, but you have to tell the patient sweating should be mild, not profused. Then you have to use the allergy in nature, like the ruin. We need the drizzle in the spring neck now to moisten.
[00:44:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:44:47] Speaker D: Moist the soil, let the greens growing.
But we don't need the flooding downpour. They make the flooding.
[00:44:58] Speaker C: Right, Right.
[00:44:59] Speaker D: So this is the key.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: Right.
That makes sense.
[00:45:04] Speaker C: Do you find it difficult to get patients especially? I'm imagining western American patients to buy in to the idea of Chinese medicine that's sort of more large body perspective to pay attention diet and exercise and mental state. Or are they just saying, Dr. Liu, give me a formula so I can feel better?
[00:45:25] Speaker D: Yeah. They first come to give me the formula, give me the acupuncture to feel better. But we said sometimes the patient need to pay attention to their diet, their emotions. For example, if they have this anxiety, have this depression, so they need to work on the emotion, I will send them to the Trigmaster or psychological consultant to get the help from them.
Well, I treat them.
So I think if the patient suffers from this arthroid colitis, if they continue drinking alcohol, there's much you can do.
[00:46:08] Speaker C: Right. Because they're still going to be causing the damage.
[00:46:10] Speaker D: You really have to give that advice strictly. They have to stop, otherwise we cannot do anything.
[00:46:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:21] Speaker C: After all of these years of practicing Chinese medicine and seeing many patients, what have you liked most about Chinese medicine in Particular and maybe the same thing is what keeps you doing it.
[00:46:35] Speaker D: I think that first the Chinese medicine, first they treat the patient naturally.
As I teach in the class, we use a natural way, especially even the better understanding. In naturopathic medicine, we believe this chance herbs is born in yin and yang. And yang.
They have this, we call it this nature we talk about and the flavor.
We talk about the yin and yang.
And our human body is born with yin and yang. We have this nature and flavor as well.
So this makes the child's herbs more compatible with the body.
Then we have less side effect, less effect.
We can maximize our effect and reduce the side effect.
This is. And this is why the patient come to the Chinese medicine.
[00:47:51] Speaker C: So are you satisfied with that decision long ago to not study chemistry and instead study Chinese medicine?
[00:47:58] Speaker D: Yeah.
Now I realized.
[00:48:03] Speaker C: Was your father pleased with your decision in the end?
[00:48:06] Speaker D: Yes, she's very proud of me. And he watched after he died a year after I graduated from Western.
[00:48:17] Speaker C: So he got to see you go all the way through.
That's great.
Oh, I have another question too. While we have you, Dr. Liu. I was. I've been listening to a history of China for the last 150 years, which has been very interesting.
But one of the things I was wondering about is do you know much about where Chinese medicine is in terms of how many people in China in particular use Chinese medicine versus Western medicine and how do people think about it? Because here in the U.S. you know, we're kind of a fringe element. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, those acupuncturists, you know, they're not. Some of them don't take us very seriously. But I was wondering, in China, I, I know a lot of people use Chinese medicine, but does the population generally hold it in high regard?
[00:49:04] Speaker D: I have not lived in China, practice in there for more than 20 years. I personally don't have idea, but what I heard from a colleague there. And Chinese medicine still plays a major role in their medical service and the government support it.
And the people, especially with chronic condition, difficult case.
And they will go to the Chinese medicine.
They will go to the Chinese medicine.
[00:49:36] Speaker C: Very similar to here, right? Yeah, yeah. Once people have maxed out their regular doctor trips, then they say, oh, maybe we'll try something new.
[00:49:44] Speaker D: Yeah. And some people believe the natural medicine, they will first go to the chance medicine. Yeah. This is. Many Chinese had to do this.
[00:49:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:53] Speaker C: I wish we could get more people here to do that, to come to us first because then the problems might not be as Severe by the time.
[00:50:00] Speaker D: They get to us, you know, I think it's growing. It's growing, Growing people. You know, like when I started teaching the OCAM like you guys, I don't see such young people like you guys.
Many people is 30, 40, even 50 years old. And now it's more young people enrolled in the college after they finish their bachelor degree study.
This going, I suppose more people get to know the Chinese medicine.
[00:50:30] Speaker C: Any other final questions?
[00:50:31] Speaker B: T. Last time you told a story in class and then I think we had you tell it last time when we tried to record this. But you told a story of your dad having some kind of a problem.
[00:50:44] Speaker D: Renal failure.
[00:50:45] Speaker B: Yeah, renal failure, exactly. And in specific to this.
So a lot of the things that we use in Chinese medicine that are herbal aren't herbs in the English sense of the term. So we'll use animal products, sometimes bugs and in this case, human placenta is one of the herbs. Correct. So would you mind telling that story?
[00:51:07] Speaker D: Yes. My father, that was 1984, 85, he suffered from the, you know, fear at age of 78, 79.
And he came to the Chengdu University where I work. And so he has edema, have anemia. The hemoglobin was 6, 7.
Of course he had the disease. He had USA came to work and of course I gave the formula to him. He said, you're not qualified.
Take me to your teacher. At that time, around 29, 30 years old.
Of course, in his eyes, always his child. Of course he said, so I have to ask them my mentor who is also his teacher too.
Okay, so my mentor prescribes Zheng Wu Tang plus presenta and he placenta at that time, I don't know. Before that, at that time, prepare the placenta. The powder smelling is not good.
[00:52:26] Speaker A: Wouldn'T imagine.
[00:52:27] Speaker D: So we cook the tikokushing and pour the placenta in cups and stir. And my father also know it's hard, but he managed to swallow down yeah, two or three years. His hemoglobin go back to 11. He threw up the cane and can walk him.
So this is the proof. The statement in Nei Jin in chapter three, he said, when there is severe deficiency, you need the flavor from animal. Animal agent.
[00:53:04] Speaker B: It's a great story.
[00:53:05] Speaker C: Where did they get the placenta from? I mean, obviously it comes from women, but like is it just. Was it at that time, Just in the medicinary you could.
[00:53:12] Speaker D: Yeah, you can get it.
[00:53:15] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:53:15] Speaker D: Now still you can get it. Of course, at that time, we don't have hiv, we don't have the barely have the hepatitis now is quite popular. Of course, they have, you know, rule out those disease before they chose.
[00:53:33] Speaker C: Right, of course.
In fact, I was reading a clinic handbook this morning when I before I came to school, and they were talking about formulas that included placenta. And there was a tag underneath because it was a formula that had placenta and ju Sha in it. And there was a tag at the bottom that said, but these are not appropriate for use anymore. And I thought, ah, well, that's interesting.
[00:53:55] Speaker D: Yeah, Chosha is interesting.
Western people think that chosha, this asana, they will immediately reject it. But the enchanted medicine will say anything you do is a matter of month, matter of time.
[00:54:13] Speaker C: Jusha is the cinnabar.
[00:54:14] Speaker D: Yeah, Cinnabar, Yeah. Oh, sorry. Cinnabar. So they are afraid, but the small.
[00:54:21] Speaker B: Amount in the right combination.
[00:54:26] Speaker C: With the intention and the purpose of a particular treatment.
[00:54:29] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. That's why the Asian people use that cautions.
[00:54:36] Speaker C: Well, Dr. Liu, thank you so much again for recording with us.
[00:54:40] Speaker D: You're welcome. I hope this time. Hope this time it's.
[00:54:43] Speaker C: Yes, I think we verified it enough that it will work.
So we appreciate your time and we appreciate talking with you and have a great day.
[00:54:52] Speaker D: Okay? You too.
[00:54:53] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:54:54] Speaker D: You're welcome.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: We're so honored to have shared this time with you, and we hope you'll join us again.
